The Premodern Roundtable: 2025 Edition with Special Guest Martin Berlin
PLUS: Spice Paradise returns, a primer on RocSur, and musings about Lotus Petal
The annual Premodern roundtable is finally here, featuring 22 of the brightest players, deck designers, content/format creators, and community pillars to weigh in on the format. If you’d like to review earlier editions and learn more about the participant backgrounds, here are 2023 and 2024. This time around I asked previous participants to return so that we could see how their thinking has evolved in the last year or two — plus special guest Martin Berlin (who hints at changes to come)! Next year’s roundtable will feature some returning and some new voices to keep the conversation fresh and diverse. Let’s dig into it!
The 2025 Premodern Roundtable
What are the top decks in Premodern right now?
What are your thoughts on the health of Premodern’s meta?
Martin Berlin (8): The first notable, and positive, thing to me is that the meta is very dynamic. The popularity of certain archetypes still changes over time, and existing archetypes are refined and we even see completely new decks emerge. I have a sense that the speed of innovation has increased in the past couple of years or so, as a combined effect of the growing player-base, more opportunities for league-style play, and I believe also due to some more focused deck building efforts by a handful of talented players who also share their process (Premodern influencers, kind of).
A second positive observation is that there is still an amazing level of deck diversity, generally speaking. If we for example browse TC Decks for events during the last month, it's true that we see decks like Stifle-Nought and Replenish claiming a lot of the top finishes, but we only have to scratch the surface a bit to find all sorts of decks like Clerics, Tron, 5c White Weenie and Astral Slide. And behind generic deck names like “Oath” we might find a spicy RG Lands deck with Scorched Earth and Natural Emergence. In other words the “Other” slice of the meta pie is sizeable, and regardless of the exact win percentage, these are decks that people enjoy, care about and bring to tournaments.
A third observation, and this one is negative, is that black is significantly weaker and less played than the other colors. Many of black's most powerful creatures are of the suicide variety and are thus extremely weak to red's burn spells. Although black has some excellent discard and removal it lacks strong enough build-around cards to get ahead, so it has become more of a support color at best.
There's been some buzz recently about whether certain “unfun” strategies are too dominant, for example mana denial in the form of Parallax Tide and Armageddon, and anti-creature cards like Oath of Druids. Generally speaking, I think this reflects the Premodern card pool, which includes a lot of powerful prison cards, often in the form of artifacts and enchantments (while creatures are overall less powerful, compared to modern design). If I try to brew a new (competitive) deck I find it more problematic that there are some very fast and unforgiving proactive strategies in the format, meaning I need to have a very fast plan myself or I need a rather specific set of answers. In a longer perspective, I feel that this aspect has become more “restrictive” in the past few years, mainly due to the top decks being more optimized (hello “Homepage Elves”!) but also because of the London mulligan rules, which makes some of these strategies more consistent.
Francisco Pawluszek (8): The format has been evolving continually since I started playing, back in late 2022. Back then people were clamoring to ban Survival or even Wirewood Symbiote, cause Elves was apparently unstoppable and the best thing to do in the format. Then Dreadnought became the talk of the town and everyone wanted that banned. Then RG Oath appeared and people were even suggesting the banning of Sphere of Resistance. And now everybody has all but forgotten about that cause Parallax Tide is broken and needs to go... Of course until the next thing comes up and we forget about it to go after Goblin Goon, which I still have no idea how it continues to be allowed in the format!
Lanny Huang (9): Zooming out and looking at the repeated diversity of major top 8s combined with how frequent new deck innovations break out, you’d be hard-pressed to find a healthier magic format than Premodern. It's also exciting that there are noticeable meta shifts from month to month. Every time I sleeve up to play, the format feels as fresh as the day I started.
Nick Mayo (7): I think the meta is healthy. There are definitely deck choices to be made to attack the meta, and interesting brews have topped or even won large events. Personally, I think we are in the Premodern cycle where folks are extremely vocal about bans. This has happened before - see Gaea’s Cradle/Wirewood Symbiote discussions in years past.
Of course, the Mono U Dreadnought deck is very very strong, and I can see folks arguments for the banning of cards. I just don't agree with them currently. There is space for the meta to adjust.
Michael Heup (8): I think the format is relatively healthy. I still enjoy playing against the top meta decks and I feel like there is still space in the format to brew and succeed. There are also many times I have played in tournaments with decks that I would not consider Tier 1, but still feel like I have a reasonable chance to win a tournament. Some have expressed concerns about the current state of the format (mostly being worried about Parallax Tide). I'm not disagreeing that those decks are powerful and performing well, but I'm optimistic that the format will adapt. We have seen metagames that had similar results that changed without bannings.
Michael Arnold (7): This is probably the most unbalanced I have seen Premodern since I started playing with the exception of Elves's dominance from Dec 2020-Aug 2021. While we are seeing a decent variety of decks placing highly in tournaments, there are a large portion of these decks which are centered around mana denial and prison elements. While I do think there is room in the metagame for these strategies, I don't think they should be so prevalent among the top decks.
William Hirst (10): While there are cards that "Feel Bad", this is the healthiest the format has been. As a lover of a solidly tier 2 deck, I am confident that I can tune said list to be a force at whatever event I am at. There is enough wiggle room to make old and new archetypes flex enough to make a run. I think this makes it the healthiest I have ever seen this format.
Robin Lundh (4): The homogenization around blue and Tide is if not unhealthy then at least unfun. But I live in hopes that the “EU meta” is ahead of everyone else and we will learn and adapt based on their decks.
Álvaro Galindo (9): There isn't something like “the” Premodern meta, because I still think every community around the world has its own specific meta. There are many players that simply enjoy to cast the cards they like the most, even if that means they won't be playing the “top” decks. For instance, in Chile it isn't uncommon to face many black decks in IRL tournaments, while in other places decks like Pit Rack or Zombies are not well represented.
Lionel Low (8): 2024 was a great year for Premodern in that despite the fixed card pool, we saw new tier 1 decks in Tidenought, RocSur and Replenish. The tier 2 decks are even more diverse and frequently see new brews. There were 500+ recorded tourneys on mtgtop8.com as compared to 300+ in 2023. I would have rated the health of the format a full 10 upon 10 if not for two things: black is under-represented and can benefit from an unban; and the tier 1 decks are gatekeeping the innovation of new decks slightly.
Anton Glans (10): Looking at the entire year of 2024, a lot has happened! We currently live in a Tide world, but that was a natural response to the Prison Oath winter/spring. I think the general meta is fine; we see a lot of deck diversity among the top performers in all major events. New decks keep popping up, and old decks are getting tuned and adapted to address whatever the current problem is. We also see differences in local and continental metas. With that said, I do think we’re ready for some unbans to introduce new decks and possible shake-ups.
Andy Culpepper (8): From my perspective the meta seems pretty healthy right now. I remember times when a certain deck seemed to be dominating, like Elves back in 2021, but now it seems more like certain players are more correlated with success than any individual deck. The top players will always do well with whatever deck they choose but there are a variety of decks that can be competitive, especially with proper tuning and metagaming.
Andrea Mengucci (7): The top 3 decks seem to be 50-50 against each other and a small step above the rest.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm (9): It's very healthy. It shows because the metagames of different regions or playstyles (MTGO, Webcam, Live Competitive, Live Casual) are also very different. It is still possible to play your favorite deck and win events with it if you play your deck well.
Manos Kokkinis (4): I believe the format has reached a stage where it generates more negative experiences than positive ones, with three cards specifically facilitating this; Oath of Druids, Dreadnought and Parallax tide. While Premodern is celebrated as a format that allows the use of cards that are either too powerful for other formats or have become obsolete due to their lack of impact, there is a clear problem when such cards begin to warp the format. This is a matter that needs to be addressed to maintain the health and balance of the gameplay experience.
Gabe Farkas (6): I think cries of an oppressive meta are overblown. If anything, it seems like there are more complaints about the complaints than there are actual legitimate complaints. At the end of the day a format is shaped by the people playing it. So much of Premodern is played by smaller, local communities. Each of them have their own small meta, likely centered around whatever pet decks the community members enjoy piloting. As a whole, that makes the global Premodern meta a blend of deck archetypes and sub-archetypes. Therefore, I think any claims of larger meta shifts are probably exaggerated, and possibly tendentiously so.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron (7): I think that there are a few decks that are so powerful that they keep each other in balance, but it's hard for Tier 2 decks to have answers for all of them (I guess that's why they are Tier 2). The meta is still relatively varied and people are still brewing enough for the format to earn a very good rating of 7. However, I'm not sure this can stay like this for a very long time. Let's see how this goes for a few months, say until Lobstercon.
Rich Shay (8): Premodern is very healthy. I think there are improvements that can be made, but compared to just about any corporate format, Premodern is doing great.
Aaron Dicks (10): The meta remains good largely because people react to its changes. There is always a top tier choice in Premodern and people work to adjust and make that deck a risky decision. It's the way the format has always been.
Michael Flores (9): It’s great right now
Cristian Wisner (8): The truth is that I'm currently a bit disconnected from the “competitive” environment of Premodern, I don't play that often and when I do I try to play off meta/ tier 2-5 decks hahaha.
I see and hear some discontent for some fundamental cards of the top 3 tier decks, and in part I agree, it's also true that some time ago the dominant deck was completely Elves, and the meta adapted to it. so I don't think the current meta is super healthy, but it's not bad by any means.
Chris DiBiase (7): I'm fairly positive about the state of the meta. While some decks are perhaps over-represented, things tend to cycle in and out.
If it were up to you, would you ban or unban anything right now? Or in the near future?
Martin Berlin: I intend to make a change to push black in 2025. But I have to keep you guessing as to how...
Michael Heup: I would not ban or unban anything right now. I could see in the future that if Parallax Tide decks continue to outperform other strategies that a banning could be necessary, but I personally would like to give more time for people to adapt. Looking at the current ban list, I'm not confident that unbanning a card would solve any current problems. There are some cards that I imagine might be the right power level, but I think unbanning a card and having it warp the metagame/make some deck oppressive is much higher (and worse) than it being at the right power level (or have little to no impact).
Anton Glans: Unban Tendrils of Agony and/or Entomb. One way to make prominent land denial strategies worse (e.g., Tide, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Thermokarst) is by having decks that go under. Boosting Reanimate will likely increase the value of Edict effects, which inherently battle the Dreadnought strategies. Entomb will obviously also boost Contamination, but that’s a rather deck-building-restrictive two-card combo. I miss more spell-based decks in Premodern, and without a real draw engine (Bargain, Necro) Tendrils will not be too consistent or oppressive. There are also a lot of storm-hating cards in the pool, should the meta demand such adaptation.
Rich Shay: Banning nothing is not a bad option. Premodern is fine as it is, but could be improved. There are more non-games than might be ideal right now. I'd seriously consider banning Dreadnought, and perhaps Tide and Mox as well.
Banning Dreadnought is a stand-alone option. It is a powerful game-ending two-mana combo that is better than both Reanimator and Psychatog. It pushes a lot out of the format. And it may be that the broad mana-denial strategies represented by Tide and Mox are made much stronger because Dreadnought is keeping the decks that would combat those strategies down.
If more cuts are needed, I would consider banning the set of Tide and Mox. I prefer banning Tide and Mox to banning Tide alone, as the former will open up the format to being taken over by Mox Diamond decks. Both of these cards do lead to non-games.
However, while considering any banning, I note that the things that are very powerful in the US metagame do not appear to be an issue in Europe. Perhaps this is a signal that things are OK. And perhaps Dreadnought is pushing the decks that would address these out of the US metagame more than in Europe.
Michael Flores: I’d test unbanning multiple powerful black cards. Necropotence and Yawgmoth’s Will. I fear letting Will go alone would just make Blue decks but both together would make Black decks. No idea if this would require a fast roll-back but that’s what I’d test. I also think a rotating banned list that flicks up and down is something to test in the future, creating distinct seasons. But nothing HAS to be done. I rated format health 9/10.
Lionel Low: The APAC Premodern Webcam ran a season where all black cards were unbanned. Our findings is that Mind Twist is a terrible early game and terrible top deck late game. Most of the time it resolved, the decks playing it still lost. It was only good on turns 3 or 4 and against certain decks. We concluded that the reason people wanted it to stay banned was because of the feels-bad. This is the number one card I think should be unbanned. I mean is Mind Twist more oppressive than Replenish or Tide?
Chris DiBiase: I think that we need to be looking at the impact of Parallax Tide (particularly in mono-U Dreadnought shells over the next several months. On the one hand, the deck's meta representation is on the rise, at least on MTGO (Tide/Dreadnought with Tide made up a combined 12% of the meta with a 58% win rate in our most recent event). I think a core issue here is that regardless of the objective strength of the deck, losses to Tide have a uniquely hopeless feel-bad vibe to them. On the other hand, I wouldn't be looking to shake things up yet. I want see how we are able to iterate solutions as a community over the next several months.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: I've always said that Phyrexian Dreadnought is too powerful, especially in conjunction with the Gush-Daze-Foil package. It’s a deck that cannot lose if it draws the correct cards, no matter how well you sideboarded against it. I don't like "nut draws" unless they are very rare. I believe they are far too common and do more harm than anything else.
Fast mana is also often a big offender and I think Mox Diamond should have gotten the axe instead of Land Tax. Sadly, often the best answer to Mox Diamond decks is to run Mox Diamond yourself, or to run a super low curve. This speeds up the format unnecessarily.
Lastly, to see black decks make a comeback, the color red would need to be nerfed. Red decks are super powerful and are kept in check only by the other unfair things of the format. I don't really know what I'd do specifically in that regard though. Ban Sulfuric Vortex?
I was willing to have Necro unbanned when Land Tax was around, but since we're going the other way, I don't ask for any unbans.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: No cards needs to be banned. There are some who don't like to play against Oath of Druids and some who hate losing to Parallax Tide, but I don't find those cards oppressive. One could unban Memory Jar. With Grim Monolith and Academy still banned, I can imagine Memory Jar brings up cool unique deck ideas. If it does turn out too broken with just Rituals and Tinkers, well an unban can always be undone. It would definitely be a card that would be unique to Premodern.
Aaron Dicks: No bans right now but I'd watch for two things to trigger changes: 1) Over representation by one strategy and 2) Format warping to combat that strategy to the point other decks lose their identity or disappear entirely.
Andy Culpepper: There are exceptions to every rule, but my general philosophy is that a card shouldn't be banned if it wouldn't be played as a 4-of. I can't imagine Mystical Tutor being played as a 4-of.
Nick Mayo: I wouldn't ban or unban anything. The ban list is largely broken up by Cards that Enable Combo, Cards that are Miserable to Play Against, or Cards that Involve Ante. I'm not interested in any of them.
Andrea Mengucci: No. There will always be a best deck, and Armageddon is as good as Parallax Tide in the right deck. Either ban both or none.
Álvaro Galindo: I wouldn't ban anything right now and also I don't believe unbanning a card like Entomb would make a huge impact, even if it fits my beloved Mono B Contamination deck. The many metas around the world will probably just adjust to cards like Tide, by playing extra hate or decks that prey on these strategies.
Gabe Farkas: Short answer: no changes. Longer answer: I think it would be neat to have a "future future league" for Premodern, where watchlist type of cards can go through more systematic testing. Perhaps something like that exists already and I'm just not aware of it? The purpose of this testing would be twofold: (1) what might happen when certain cards are removed from the card pool, and therefore what else might bubble up; and (2) what are the best shells (existing or new) for cards currently on the ban list. Twist my arm and for #2 I'll point to Mystical Tutor, Earthcraft, Necropotence, Mind's Desire, and/or Goblin Recruiter.
Francisco Pawluszek: I don't deny the power of Parallax Tide. In particular its addition to the sideboard of the Mono U Dreadnought list that David Raczka is especially revolutionary since Dreadnought was already a threat that demanded respect, and adding a completely different angle to that deck is extremely strong. That being said, I feel like there are a considerable amount of tools available to combat the deck that are not being yet maximized, particularly cards like Annul and Pyroblast (which in my opinion should be played in at least 4 copies right now). I would allow for the format to continue to evolve and see whether people are able to adapt to this new menace before taking any measures. That being said, I do agree with the sentiment that Parallax Tide is very far from the ideal card to have as “best card in the format”, just how Land Tax was before its banning. The card can be sometimes hard to interact with, and having all your lands get swept up while your opponent is allowed to continue to do their thing is a bit too “feels bad” of an effect, and Tide enables that for a ridiculously low mana cost.
Lanny Huang: I wouldn't ban anything now or in the near future because there simply isn't anything broken about the format right now. I have long felt the most bannable card in the format is Oath of Druids, but the decks playing it are not overpowered. I do think Dr. Surf and Turf threatens to be Tier 0, but we'll see if the meta can adapt.
Michael Arnold: I would ban Parallax Tide due to the difficulty in interacting with the card. The card also did not function the same in 1999-2003 as it does now as it received power-level errata almost immediately. I would also unban Entomb to help power up graveyard strategies. As it is, Reanimator usually ends up being a worse Stiflenought. I would also consider unbanning either Necropotence or Tendrils of Agony, but not both.
Manos Kokkinis: Right now I am uncertain whether I want to stick to a previous statement of mine, unban something rather than ban, because even if we do, it might not lead to significant changes. We have already witnessed the unbanning of Show and Tell which had virtually zero impact to the format. That being said, we have two potential paths forward:
1. Ban the the above mentioned (DN, Tide and Oath) and reset the format.
2. Retain these cards, but unban 2-3 other ones in order to create archetypes that could possibly solve the current "issues".
The second option will also make room for brewing, create excitement and reignite interest among players who may have lost enthusiasm for the format.
Cristian Wisner: I would not be surprised if they ban Oath of Druids, which I think is a super oppressive card for a huge variety of decks (it was already an important piece in Parfait at the time).
Replenish, many say that by cutting the Parallax Tide you can stop this deck, I think the problem is not the Tide but the Replenish card, because no matter how many discards, gloom, enchantments you have destroyed, a topdecked Replenish is usually game...with only one card....
To not ban Tide (and kill possible decks with Ankh of Mishra haha) and not ban Dreadnought (and kill the deck with Greater Good :D ) maybe an option that works for both archetypes is to ban Stifle, who knows.
Cards that seem to me that could be unbanned, the most obvious I think is Entomb. Mind Twist deserves to be thought about carefully, I think black needs a little more push since we don't have Hymn to Tourach...coff coff....
Robin Lundh: Right now? No. In the near future? Sure, if nothing has changed post Lobstercon/Premodern Grand Prix Frankfurt come May, probably something should be done to shake things up.
William Hirst: No bans are necessary. If I were to choose anything I'd like to see a card or two come off the ban list. I think something like Flash, Worldgorger Dragon are options, Id love to give entomb or Necro a swing. I do think it would be appropriate that if something where to be unbanned Mr. Berlin can also state that the card is being watched and could be brought back to ban land. Or I’ll just be happy with the amazing rotation we got going on right now
What's a spicy deck or brew that you've seen in the last year that you've liked?
Martin Berlin: Having just looked at your 2024 retrospective I saw quite a few good ones there haha, Turbo Upheaval for example. At the Euro Champs we had a deck with Flesh Reaver and Armadillo Cloak in action, that was pretty fun (played by Roman Pulker, caught on stream here)
I guess it’s not really considered a brew at this point, and the deck archetype emerged before last year even, but I want to highlight a deck like Oath Ponza, since it’s something completely unique to Premodern, as far as I know. Thermokarst and Terravore in one of the the top decks is pretty cool and something I didn’t expect.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: The Spice Paradise tournament [deck lists] featured some very cool ideas. Cody's RW Stoic Flux, Koget's Braidstax and BrandonE's Wallflower were some of my favorite. On a personal level, I've had fun with my brews (Oath of Ghouls, Mono-W Control, Mono-R Control, Parfait-like variants) but they haven't really been able to stand a chance so far unless I was playing them vs same-level decks.
Francisco Pawluszek: I am very proud of the Treva Aluren deck that I put together, which I think is very strong and extremely underplayed. The BUG version that A_Webb put together is also very good. I think it may be the most underplayed archetype in Premodern, and it's definitely the one that got the largest delta in improvement and innovations in the year 2024.
Anton Glans: Philipp’s Iggy Pop [podcast], Nick’s Tin Fins [podcast], Arty’s Cephalid Breakfast [podcast], and Magnus’ Domain Legacy Weapon [podcast] are not only beautiful creations but also have results to back them up.
Andrea Mengucci: Gruul Zoo made by my local group that has been winning a lot here, we also played it on Mengu’s Workshop.
Álvaro Galindo: From the Spice Paradise tournament [deck lists], I loved playing RG Madness. Another deck that caught my eye was Tin Fins combo, it is awesome.
Cristian Wisner: The last decks I was playing were Tireless Tribe, I love the archetype and I love the “Tribe” the guys put together. Dance Academy, I love combo decks like that, as soon as I saw the decklist it was love at first sight haha. And the last thing I put together and I could only play in a tournament is GB Pit Rack, I'm really liking Rotting Giant and Tempting Wurm.
Manos Kokkinis: It might not be from last year, but it was a UG Sunder deck. Must have been one of your spicy brews! I so want to add red to that and play assault :)
William Hirst: Sam Black’s Naya Enchantress [primer] list is very powerful. I also have a soft spot for the Beefy Green deck piloted by Jake Murphy [podcast] at the Duress Crew hosted regional event. Tin Fins from the same event is also an amazing shout.
Nick Mayo: Mono G BEEFCAKE
Aaron Dicks: I'm blessed to be surrounded by great brewers in the local scene. There's always something new getting brought out. In the online space if say the Recycle Storm list looks awesome and I've loved watching Survival Rock [primer] take off.
Rich Shay: There are a lot of options here! The return of Rec-Sur [primer] to the metagame is very welcome. That's a cool, historic deck that I am very pleased to see.
Michael Flores: F*** It We Call Burn by Aaron Dicks
Lionel Low: A Manabond-Upheaval combo deck by Manuel Soeiro!
Andy Culpepper: I really like Lanny's UGw Flash deck with Beast Attack!
Gabe Farkas: Show and Tell into Dream Halls into Psychatog into Lotus Petal into Flinging a pumped up Psychatog.
Chris DiBiase: I always enjoy seeing whatever Tom Metelsky is doing with Tireless Tribe.
Robin Lundh: The birth of GB Survival [primer] has been great. Tin Fins (although I hate the name) is super cool. Oh, and <secret combo deck> is a blast to play.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: I really like Frantisek Kotas take on Survival Rock at Eternal Weekend Prague. It's beautiful, powerful when played clean, garbage when you're new to the deck.
Lanny Huang: Philipp Altman's Iggy Pop was my favorite. Honorable mention for Nick Balzano's Buried Ghoul and Marcus Ewaldh's Frantic Storm.
Michael Arnold: BEEFCAKE. Anyone who is fairly swinging in with big green idiots has my approval.
Michael Heup: I like the Iggy Pop (UB Storm with Ill-Gotten Gains) that made Top 8 of the German Premodern Championship.
What decks or cards do you think are underplayed in Premodern?
Martin Berlin: Hmm, Devourer combo perhaps? I also have a hunch that a more classic UW control could be viable again if someone put in the work. Regarding specific cards, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors could probably be exploited more. And it’d be fun with more decks built around cost-reducing effects like Sapphire Medallion and Thornscape Familiar (rather than Sphere of Resistance!). And personally I always want to see more flavors of Lands decks. :)
Lanny Huang: GAT Cards: Nimble Mongoose, Abundance, Plaguebearer, Merfolk Looter, Mirri's Guile (!), Beast Attack, Dismiss, Absorb, Renewed Faith, Accumulated Knowledge, Kirtar’s Desire, Vindicate.
Cristian Wisner: I can't tell you the names of the decks, single cards that come to my mind... Rotting Giant, Temting Wurm, Braids Cabal Minion, Living Death, Mirari's Wake, False Cure, and Spy Network.
Michael Heup: I'm curious if there is a version of UW (or more colors) Control that could be tuned for the metagame. For cards: Aura of Silence and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast seem well positioned sideboard cards.
Nick Mayo: Red blast, Creature decks w/disruption, and for spice, Seedtime
Rich Shay: Attunement should probably be in more decks than just Replenish. But overall, Red Blast should see more play.
Anton Glans: Elves and UW Flippi are extremely underplayed decks considering their power level. Various underplayed cards: Ankh of Mishra, Burning Wish, Hunting Pack, Cabal Therapy, Megrim, Aura Shards.
William Hirst: For as powerful as I think it is, I dont see Goblins as much as it deserves. Pit Rack is also a variant that seems to have a slot in the current meta at the moment, just gotta dodge the red threat.
Lionel Low: Grand Coliseum! It is too slow for aggro but should enable more three-five colour midrange/ control decks
Andy Culpepper: I think Stasis and White Weenie are both underplayed. Stasis is really strong but a lot of people consider it boring or unfun. White Weenie can be tuned to beat a lot of the top decks.
Aaron Dicks: I think Annul is maindeckable right now.
Álvaro Galindo: Players should try to brew around black cards. There are still some cards in that color that can be leverage in interesting, even competitive brews.
Gabe Farkas: First, Show and Tell has not seen a large amount of play since being unbanned in October 2022. It has appeared almost exclusively in Dream Halls decks and Reanimator decks. The original motivation behind the banning had to do with the potential for ultra-fast non-interactive combos, in general as well as using Yawgmoth's Bargain. It made sense to unban Show and Tell once Bargain was banned, but so far it has been a manqué of a card. I haven't seen any ultra-fast combos using SnT. I suspect there's a deck using it to put into play Sneak Attack, Recycle, or other high-CMC cards that could exist. Second, two years ago for this roundtable I wrote that the format was coalescing around cards banned in other formats because of power level but legal in Premodern. Among these, Tinker has not seen much play, only occasionally in MUD or Devourer. This is probably mostly due to many of the powerful fast mana artifacts being banned. I wonder what other archetypes could benefit from adding it?
Francisco Pawluszek: As I said above, Aluren is extremely underplayed. I also spoiled it a little in the previous section, but Pyroblast and Annul are cards that are currently S tier and even though they do see play they should appear in larger numbers. Also I am particularly interested in the Red/Black color combination. It feels to me that the combination of discard + Pyroblast + Skeletal Scrying is really, really strong. Finally, you also get to play what is in my opinion the #1 sleeper card in Premodern: Fire Covenant.
Chris DiBiase: I feel like Elves as an archetype might actually be really well positioned at the moment. Goblins seems on the downswing, Burn's meta share seems a bit suppressed by the prevalence of Dreadnought, and there might be window here for a resurgence.
Michael Arnold: Currently I think DracoBlast is one of the most underplayed decks in the format. Having a strong disruption package including both discard and red blasts seems pretty good in the metagame but black/red decks aren't seeing play.
Manos Kokkinis: The Rock which used to be a stellar in the format sees almost zero play nowadays. Well to be fair, we recently saw some iterations of the deck featuring survival as their key card, but still it is not what it used to be. Another deck that comes in mind is the WR Rifter. Both of those decks fold to just 1 card, Parallax Tide. Underplayed cards: Oath of Ghouls, Show and Tell, Sunder, Seismic Assault.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: I think Gaea's Cradle is the most powerful underused card.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage. Annul in Sideboards.
Andrea Mengucci: Tsabo’s Web
Robin Lundh: Not sure I'm tuned in enough to answer this, so I'm just going to be boring and say Annul still.
Michael Flores: No idea honestly
What’s your prediction for how Premodern will change in 2025?
Martin Berlin: I think we will continue to see a relatively fast pace of innovation in deckbuilding, with a gradually fluctuating meta-game as a consequence, as mentioned in the first question. I also expect to see more Premodern content of different sorts. There will be even more great IRL events to go to, but perhaps they'll start to cap out for logistical reasons as it's not trivial to run events with hundreds of players. I also think there will be more experimenting with different tournament formats and rules variants within the Premodern universe, for example Premodern Singleton variants team events and drafts.
Michael Arnold: I hope we will see a course correction with more people playing spicy brews. It's hard to measure the level of risk that players are willing to take, but it certainly feels like that has gone down and more players are sticking to their established decks. This may just be my observational bias though.
Nick Mayo: I suspect the meta will rotate to disruptive aggro decks in the short term. Long term there is a non-zero chance of a ban but I remain skeptical.
Aaron Dicks: It's time for a rise of the pure control deck again. The format is ready for an answer focused deck that shuts out the top few strategies now that we've shaken out what those strategies are after the post-tax brewing explosion.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: There seems to be an effort right now to try and find new ideas to challenge the status quo, but I have the feeling that this won't lead to anything relevant. So, in my opinion, change in PM will really depend on a change in the ban/unban list. If there's no change to the list, I think the metagame will stay similar, with “alternative rules PM” becoming more popular. People will still enjoy PM, but will gladly try other ways to enjoy it if things become too stable. This is how I feel personally, with Spice Paradise and Big Apple Highlander filling the need for novelty.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: Modern Magic will reset somehow. Modern and Pioneer die out, but Standard play will rise. This brings several Legacy/Modern/Pioneer players towards Premodern. More players isn't always good as it means different ideas of what one wants to see and experience at an event can clash. Premodern will have big awesome events, but these huge events holding a more diverse type of players may make some oldschool-casual-chill-vibe-players evolve a grudge against what's happening.
Francisco Pawluszek: Premodern changes slowly, yet consistently. I think that unless we see a banning or something drastic we will see the same guys at the top of the food chain. That being said, I feel like there's room for innovation. I'm especially intrigued by the potential that UW Dreadnought has to potentially adapt to get a leg up un the mirror. At the same time, Elves has been an archetype on the rise lately, and I don't think that's a coincidence since it doesn't really care much about the card Parallax Tide. Red decks (or decks that can splash Red, at least) are also poised for a comeback imo, since Pyroblast may be currently be the best sideboard card in the format.
Anton Glans:
- A banlist update.
- Dreadnought and Tide will see a decreased position due to meta adaptation.
- The player base will grow, the content will grow, and the various platforms will form more distinct sub-communities. While I don’t hope for polarization, I fear that there will be more vocal camps pushing for a distinction between cutthroat competitive vs casual, spike vs spice, and/or prize-focused vs charity events.
- IRL events will continue to kick ass!
- More format spin-offs are bound to happen (e.g., Highlander, BAH, Unchained, Shocklands Premodern).
William Hirst: I think growth will continue. I look forward to seeing the growth of in person events and the various regionl crews being created. The ban/unban discourse will continue, and I would not be suprised if we saw something to shake it up.
Andy Culpepper: I think we will get some sort of banlist shakeup but I honestly can't predict what Martin will decide to do.
Álvaro Galindo: As I said before, I believe the metas will adjust themselves. Elves will probably return to take advantage of the many Replenish and Tide players, as well as the unprepared Mono U Stiflenoughts builds with Tide. That will put Goblins in a better position overall.
Gabe Farkas: We have seen attrition from some longer-term players in 2023 and 2024, seemingly in part due to some asperity from more and more competitive-leaning players joining the format. On the other hand, I have also started to see some emboldened responses to the spikier attitudes, in particular the apodictic way some people talk about their own opinions. Ideally we reach some self-regulating equilibrium.
Robin Lundh: People that aren't me will brew cool s*** that changes up the meta. Or they won't and an unban (or ban, I guess) will do the work for us.
Manos Kokkinis: As word-of-mouth spreads and events grow larger, more players from other communities might join, expanding the player base. We see that already happening the last 3 years and there is no reason this will not continue. Newer players might also explore Premodern for its unique mix of power and nostalgia. Hopefully there will be some changes and the metagame will diversify further
Cristian Wisner: Impossible to know because everything would change drastically if there is indeed any ban or unban, if nothing like that happens, I would expect the meta to adapt a little to defeat the tier decks and I think that at this point, a good example is the performance that is having this last time the BG SurviRock.
Michael Heup: My guess is the metagame will find a way to balance out a bit. I expect TO's will experiment with more alternative rules/variations for paper/webcam tournaments. I could also see the MTGO scene for Premodern growing even more. Whatever happens, - I'm excited!
Chris DiBiase: I don't think there will be any incredibly big changes. Instead, trends will continue to progress: the format will continue to grow, we will see more local scenes developing, and there will be increasing bleed over between the MTGO, webcam, and IRL spaces. On the MTGO side of things, our events now average 90+ players, and I expect that number to continue to grow as more folks dip their toes into the client (it's not that scary, I promise!).
I do think we'll see more growth for the Big Apple Highlander format. We're launching a BAH series on MTGO in January that should offer more players a chance to check out what looks like a very cool concept!
Lanny Huang: I think Premodern will continue on its current growth trajectory.
Andrea Mengucci: They’ll ban a card to UW Replenish
Lionel Low: If there are no further bans or unbans, the meta will most likely stablise. For the sake of innovation, I hope there will be at least one unbanning.
Rich Shay: I see the format growing as more people discover it.
Michael Flores: Continue to grow
Are there any ways you think we could nurture the Premodern community?
Martin Berlin: First, I really want to encourage IRL events at the level of your local community, whether it's a casual meet-up, league or tournament. I think more than anything this is what builds an attachment between players and to the format.
Second, people must understand and accept that Premodern players have very different backgrounds and motivations, and that there is not a single correct way to enjoy the format. Some players prefer trying out new brews at the kitchen-table or in the pub, whereas others are thrilled by playing tournaments with their carefully optimized decks. Some prefer tournaments with prizes, and some don't. Some players play very frequently, perhaps both IRL and online, and these players will probably be more attentive to meta-game changes, or will feel more impatient when changes are slow or when they feel that something is off with the banlist, compared to those who only play now and then. Some people enjoy tangible tournament prizes and some don't. Neither one is wrong, but communication is key to calibrate expectations. For example, if you organize a tournament, be clear from the start about the prize structure. And if you don't like it, perhaps it's time for you to organize your own event, the way you like it?
Third, and most importantly, don't forget to have fun! :) I encourage people to mix it up and experiment with different variations and tournament formats. Organize a team unified tournaments or one-time events in which specific cards are unbanned, play cube, or try one of the singleton variants like Big Apple Highlander (I'm excited to try it out myself).
Andy Culpepper: I think it's always helpful to remember why you got into the format to begin with. For me it started with the joy of rediscovering the old cards I loved. Finding Premodern brought a lot of joy because it was a great format where I could play those cards again. Sometimes we can all get frustrated with the format, and it's always fine to take a break and try to rediscover why we got into it in the first place.
Nick Mayo: I think community members should feel welcome to run their own events, even with their own ideas or sub-formats. Creating content is a great way to grow the format. Premodern almost sells itself with all the nonsense going on with modern MTG products. I do think we are going through growing pains - which is fine! - but if others feel like there needs to be a change, they should be the ones to change it.
Michael Flores: I think the community could be more welcoming of brew people and ideas. A lot of the entrenched player base longs for good old days that never really existed or feel entitled to play a certain way that feels threatened as new players and optimizations come in. The format is great in part because of its dynamism and this kind of thinking can be seen as both backwards and off putting.
Aaron Dicks: The tournament scene is phenomenal. There are tournaments of every size and stake happening routinely. I think we just continue to make our casual scenes and playgroups welcoming. Bring your loaner decks. Stop and chat with people who recognize nostalgic cards. Make your scene a place where everyone feels welcome. Be good to each other. Treat each other with respect in person and online and the rest will happen naturally.
Álvaro Galindo: As one of the organizers of the Chile Premier League (monthly webcam tournament), I think a key thing to keep in mind while growing a community is to be consistent in terms of communication, activities and scope. We are all busy family guys and we make compromises to play this card game. With that in mind, my advice is to do your best to make the players feel they time is well worth it playing Premodern, by building a respectful community in the first place.
Lanny Huang: Maximize opportunities to play. The first thing I hear from the curious is typically that they don't want to invest in a format they won't play often. Premodern owes its greatness to community leaders, and you can become one. If you don't have the time for that, just get out there and be visible. Get a meetup going or play in between rounds at FNM. At your LGS or Magic Con, tell people and post 'I'm bringing Premodern!', keep multiple decks on you (just proxy them!), give people a taste and they'll be hooked. I dream of the day when people keep a premodern deck in their bag everywhere they go. Also join us on MTGO, if there's enough of us, maybe we can finally get some of those pesky bugs fixed.
Lionel Low: Maybe do a Worlds-type event on webcam! Each region send 8 representatives etc for a truly global showdown. As a respected figure in the community, you're one of the best persons to pull this off, Phil!
Andrea Mengucci: I think it’s doing amazingly. The community is growing so much in Italy.
Gabe Farkas: Having played Premodern since 2017, it would be easy for me to feel and express a kind of saudade for "the good old days" of pre-COVID Premodern. Decks like Three Deuce, 4C Control, or Rebels, could finish in the top 8 of an event and no one would bat an eye. However, let me be clear: I don't see the point in harboring nostalgia for 2017-2020 Premodern. Everything evolves, the arrow of time marches forward, and no changes are permanent. In other words, I don't think Premodern needs nurturing or needs to be made better. It is what it is, and it's up to each individual what they do with their free time and content they consume.
Chris DiBiase: I continue to believe that the key to Premodern's sustained success is focusing on (particularly in public-facing forums) what we love about this format/community and not on what we dislike about other formats/communities. I think the overwhelming majority of folks I know and interact with in the scene take this approach, but I think it's always a good thing to bear in mind. There are lots of potential Premodern players out there that might have a different (i.e. more positive) relationship to the current game (e.g. EDH, Secret Lairs, Universes Beyond, new/alternative borders, WOTC in general), but who might also really enjoy our format. Hell, I bought the full set of Dr. Who Commander Precons. I want to make sure every potential player gets to experience what’s awesome about our scene without worrying about catching flak for what they enjoy about theirs.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: Premodern is getting more and more popular, thanks to the dedication of its champions (TOs, content creators, top players). People like PM for a lot of different reasons: nostalgia, game play, tournament scene, brewing sessions, etc. Let's hope all these reasons find and keep their "champions" to maintain the interest high.
Francisco Pawluszek: Whatever we are already doing is working very well, for what I've seen. Premodern is HUGE right now, and has grown exponentially since I joined. The MTGO circuit in particular, which is the main way that I play these days, has improved a great deal, and it's finally getting the attention it deserves (shoutout to the mod team who keep that ship running and do an incredible job!)
Anton Glans: Obviously, gatherings, tournaments, and content are cornerstones for community nurture. Importantly, however, I believe that quality trumps quantity. Events that aspire for REL: “don’t be a dick,” are doing it right. We’re all responsible for creating a thriving community; hence, maintaining an inclusive, respectful tone towards each other is key. If you don’t have anything nice or constructive to say, perhaps stay quiet or at least refrain from toxic comments. Lastly, ask yourself whether you are having fun playing Premodern. If so, you’re likely doing it right . If not, is there anything you can change? If you value the social aspects, maybe organize a local meetup. Attend more IRL events, talk with your opponents, see them as another human being. Enjoy the ride.
Rich Shay: The tournament organizers and content creators have done an amazing job of growing the format. The Duress Crew have set a strong example.
William Hirst: I think a focus on the in person gathering and community building is our key. Looking how we build areas up to be able to host things like the Duress Crew regionals or even a second Lobstercon type event could be a reachable goal over time.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: Bigger events with more people and prizes are not always good. The community has to grow naturally and slowly. To nurture a healthy Premodern community, I would avoid drawing in players for prizes and always focus on smooth atmosphere over "big prize atmosphere".
Robin Lundh: The local clubs are gas, that's all I know. I'm not part of one even though there's a few of us in Chicago these days, but I think PM is so big now that local clubs and their events is the future of playing PM for many (albeit not me).
Michael Arnold: I think Premodern has globally grown to a point that no one could have predicted in 2019. There are certainly still plenty of local groups that would like to see growth, however as a global community there's not much that needs to be done outside of organic growth. I would like to see a continued increase in charity events and having prizes for spiciest deck to ensure we keep our focus on just having a good time.
Michael Heup: From a content perspective, I think there is a great variety of content creators/types of content. Those that are making content are passionate about the format. I don't think the format needs to grow to succeed, but still think we need to be accepting to new players trying out the format.
Manos Kokkinis: As it is a format with a player base which keeps growing, there are some already established ideas which will help it grow even more:
- Educational content: beginner-friendly guides, videos, and articles (primers) explaining Premodern’s rules and deck archetypes
- Streaming content and coverage
- Expanded tournament scene: Premodern could see more regional and international tournaments
Cristian Wisner: I can't think of anything that can be done that is not already being done, there are several webcam tournaments in simultaneous, big tournaments already at international levels with a lot of attendance, many people are creating high quality content as my compatriot Francisco Pawluszek in his YouTube channel. Personally what I don't like very much is the current ranking, luckily there are many people who are not interested (maybe they don't even know of its existence) but there are many people who do care and try hard to get there (even cheating in webcam tournaments), and I don't think it reflects well the numbers because it includes irl tournaments, webcam tournaments and above all, I don't feel it's necessary.
Where can people find you on social media? Have anything you want to promote?
Martin Berlin: You can find me on Facebook or on the Premodern Discord server, and as @premodernmagic on X and Instagram. I want to promote @mtgdojoera on Instagram (by Andy Culpepper), who has started posting again recently! :)
Nick Mayo: You can find us at DuressCrew on all the socials. March 1st we will be hosting our next New England Premodern Regional at Great Stories in Whitinsville, MA with a cap of 102. Stay tuned to our socials or Discord for more details.
Rich Shay: The Atog Lord on Discord. I only use Discord and The Facebook for social media.
Michael Flores: @fivewithflores
William Hirst: Modern Magic Emporium on Twitter. I’ve Got ?????'s podcast on almost any platform.
Andrea Mengucci: On YouTube on Mengu’s Workshop! We play a ton of Premodern there!
Lionel Low: I'm on IG as premodern_duels!
Andy Culpepper: Find me on Instagram @mtgdojoera and Discord @AndyCulpepper
Aaron Dicks: Find me by my name or as Caffeinated22. Players looking for Premodern and Old School in Minnesota please check out Mill City Old School. Facebook, Discord, etc.
Álvaro Galindo: Lately I've been busy with work, but I like to chime in when some interesting topics surface in the Premodern Discord. I use my name, I dislike nicknames for grown adults :)
Gabe Farkas: I encourage everyone to join Bluesky. Here's my account: https://bsky.app/profile/gabefarkas.bsky.social.
Raphaël “K-Run” Caron: I've recently created a Bluesky account (@raphael-a-caron.bsky.social). I'd like to post more ideas on that platform this year.
Philip “Flippi” Boehm: I'm on twitter as Flippi_on_x, Twitch as derflippi123, facebook as "Flippi Boehm" and in several discord channels as "Flippi". In April, I run the "Premodern Grand Prix Frankfurt". It is a two-day charity event with day-2 actual Boosterdraft with cool Sideevents in Frankfurt/Germany. I collect all information about the events on www.alphacastle.eu
Francisco Pawluszek: fpawlusz on Discord, and fpawluszmtg on YouTube (where you can find A LOT of video content for free), Patreon (where you can support said content, and find written articles and tournament reports also for free) and Twitter (which I barely use these days).
Lanny Huang: Listen to Spike Colony Podcast, https://www.youtube.com/@lannynyny, and check out Spike Colony dot com!
Michael Arnold: https://www.instagram.com/elendrile/ https://www.youtube.com/@Elendrile
Robin Lundh: I'm robin on Discord, that's about it. :) I'll promote PreFire: Fran has really built an amazingly interesting format for those of us that used to play Modern but hate what it turned into. The Discord is very active, just ping me if you want in!
Michael Heup: Twitch: twitch.tv/cloudgoatranger YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CloudgoatRanger X/Twitter: @Cloudgoatranger
Anton Glans: Instagram: highcoastpremodern. Podcast: Monster of the Week. Occasional tournament coverage: Wak-Wak
Manos Kokkinis: Facebook - Manos Kokkinis / X - @mcagn / Discord - mcl3od (Manos)
Cristian Wisner: Cristian Wisner on FB, @Jaegerwish on Instagram
Chris DiBiase: I'm on Discord at iron_lungs and Twitter/X @ironlungsmtg and @premodernseries. For folks interested in Premodern on MTGO, check us out at premodernseries.org!
Return to Spice Paradise
Market research has shown that audiences love sequels… so I’m back with another season of Spice Paradise, the 8-week webcam event run through the Premodern Discord that celebrates the culture of brewing and appreciates spicy and rogue decks in the format. Signups are open through Thursday, January 23 (there are already 20 participants signed up) and first pairings will be unveiled on Monday, January 27. Join the conversation in the Spice Paradise thread in the tournament-chat channel of the Premodern Discord!
You can learn more about the beginnings of Spice Paradise, a wrap-up from last season, or read the full rules, deck guidelines, schedule, and more.
Two changes to the rules from the first season are:
Deck list submissions are no longer required each week but sharing deck photos and lists is still heavily encouraged.
There is no playoff based on record and instead we will do a community vote of fan favorite decks and arrange exhibition matches. This also means that you are more freely able to skip a week or two if your schedule is full.
Last thing I’ll say is that the first Spice Paradise was a wonderful time. The participants showcased some amazing decks, many of us were inspired and collaborated with each other, and one of the decks I trialed ended up being the deck I would have brought to Lobstercon last year. It’s a great time and I recommend trying it out if you want a relatively low commitment, high enjoyment experience.
Premodern Crew Map
Last issue, I asked the community to let me know if you had regular crew that plays Premodern to reply back to me with your group’s location, name, and how prospective players can get in touch. I’m still collecting and will share the initial map soon. Reply back to me or post in the Discord!
Lotus Petal… in Control Decks?
I recently came across a post in the Legacy subreddit asking: “Why is Legacy UWr Control Trending Towards Lotus Petal?”. Historically, Control decks have reluctant to run cards like Lotus Petal because they value sustainable mana sources and card advantage. Scrolling through the replies, some of the reasoning intrigued me in the context of Premodern:
Accelerating out your answers — With many of Premodern’s decks quickly putting pressure on your mana and/or applying early threats, having one extra mana can be the difference between surviving to the mid/late-game and scooping. An Aura of Silence on turn two or a Wrath of God on turn three can make a huge difference.
Fixes your colored mana — Premodern has notoriously bad mana and enabled double blue for Counterspell can be invaluable.
Protects against Daze — With Mono U Stiflenought the deck to beat these days the presence of Daze is strong.
Accelerating out your threats — I’m not sure if Premodern has a powerful enough card in Control shells that would warrant this. Back to Basics can be a haymaker but is meta dependent. There also isn’t a ton of threats that would recoup the card disadvantage.
Ultimately, I don’t have any spicy deck lists or recommendations to provide. I just thought it was interesting food for thought and made me re-question how I could be building Control decks given shifts in Premodern’s decks to beat.
Content
Read
⛏️🪨 Phil Stolze AKA Phil3579 wrote a primer on Survival Rock AKA RocSur AKA RecSur on The Well of Knowledge. Quite possibly one of the hottest new/old decks on the block, this is a true testament to how hard work and creative tweaking can revitalize existing decks.
🤪🧟♂️ “CrazyCarl” Winter walks us through various Zombie Infestation brews
📉👼 Baronbounty writes a primer on Moxforge about a new brew: The Dark Hope. I really love the idea of this and recently acquired some of the cards to play around with different variants.
Listen
👹🗓️ The Monster of the Week crew recap 2024 in Old School and Premodern (starting around 1:05:00 in for Premodern)
💻⚔️ Chris DiBiase joins the Premodcast to explain the ins and outs of playing Premodern on MTGO
💀🗓️ The Duress Crew is back with the second part of their year review with Nick Mayo
🥳🍻 Spike Colony talk about Intuition brews and what defines the top tier
👺🏆 Brandon Econ took down the November webcam monthly with RB Goblins and sits down to have a chat with William Hirst on I’ve Got ?????’s
Watch
🐗⚡️ Lanny Huang showcases his UGw Flash brew… you’ll fall in love with this list after the first match (which features an Accumulated Knowledge mirror)
🕳️✨ Andrea Mengucci and Tommaso Turchi play UW Replenish vs. Pit Rack on Mengu’s Workshop
♾️👻 Fpawlusz plays a fun BG RecSur deck packed with infinite combos
👑🔝 I Play Magic breaks down what the best decks in the format are
🧙⚔️ Lanny Huang plays Sam Black’s GWr Enchantress deck
🪈🦁 HeavyPlay showcases BUG Aluren vs. RW Weenie in round five of the Portland monthly
🧟♂️❓ The Impulse Crew features a match between Zombies and Junk Morphs
🐲💥 The Flooded Strand plays a decidedly not blue-white deck… Draco Blast!